Joshua Minden (00:02):

Hello, friends! Welcome to Stories & Other Things Holy, a weekly podcast where we invite you into rich encounter with stories and the power they convey to draw us into deeper connection, more honest reflection, and even the ability to remind us what it means to be alive. That being said, have you ever felt like an unlikely candidate to allow yourself to be loved? I know I have. And yet, the source of love continues to look for ways to free me and you from isolation, alienation, and a lack of belonging that we often become acquainted with in response to so much pain. Pain in our communities, pain in our families, and sometimes the pain that we contribute to. I'm your host Joshua Minden, and this week our principal storyteller, Dr. Terry Nelson Johnson, shares a story that cuts to the quick of what it takes to accept love. I pray that you, I will allow ourselves to be loved, tenderly, boldly, unreservedly, unabashedly, irreverently, lavishly, and unapologetically by the source of love. So pull up a seat at the table because you're going to want to hear this story. It's a good one. Stories & Other Things Holy.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (01:43):

Stories and Other Things Holy. I guess if you ask me, do you think all these stories are holy? I would answer. I do actually all in different ways. And then it's a little bit like kids. Do you have a favorite Holy story? I don't know pretty much what I'm telling the story. It's my favorite, but this is one of my favorites, and it's very, very poignant story involves a anniversary trip. My wife and I would alternate who planned the anniversary trip, and in this instance it was her planning, and she's a planner. I mean, she is a planner, so we're going to what she describes as the most beautiful bed and breakfast west of the Mississippi. It's in some artisty place in New Mexico, and I've never been to the southwest, so I'm very intrigued. And we get there and the beauty is so different. It's dry, the colors are muted, but vibrant sort of simultaneously.

(02:54):

The air feels so different. It's very, very cool. And the bed and breakfast proved truthful to their little marketing. It was beautiful in that southwesty kind of way. And so they had outdoor shower, a shower with no roof on it, which is great and romantic. And then it's a bed and breakfast. So breakfast has to be enhanced. And the breakfast was on this veranda, and we were the only people there for the first two days that we were there. So the wife is like worker bee and the husband is like the schmoozer. So the husband comes to us at breakfast and is telling us all about everything. And I like people. I'm a talker obviously, but this dude can rap. And I'm there with my wife. It's our anniversary. I want to spend time with her. He's beginning to bug me, and she's like, it'll be fine.

(03:46):

We have all day to spend together. I'm like, I know, but he's here. And then of course, his dog was with him. Now I'm a dog person, but still it's breakfast. And the dog was very close to my plate. The dog was there. I don't know. I was going to give it the garnish. I wasn't going to eat that, whatever, but I don't think the dog should be right there at the bed and breakfast. Anyway, so now we go into the third day and I've about had it, and the guy starts his thing, and I'm rolling my eyes and my wife is kicking me. You know how that happens? And then he says, I can't talk much today because we have a new couple. I'm like, thank God for the couple. So he leaves and he's starting to do his wrap with them, and they're sitting at a table sort of close to ours, and they comment on the dog, and the dog went with him, the dog, and he said, oh, there's a great story behind the dog.

(04:39):

You want to hear the story. And here's the thing. When you're a storyteller and you hear the phrase, it's a great story. Do you want to hear the story? You're a goner. So now I just sent the guy away and now I'm sort of like, whoa, this is going to be a good story. So the story goes like this, apparently his wife is like St. Franta, and so the local vet sends animals that need more time and healing to the bed and breakfast. They have a lot of land, et cetera. So this is one of the animals that the vet sent, and the guy said two months ago, this was one of the most vicious animals I'd ever seen. I mean, if you even looked at the animal, he would growl in ways that would make the hair stand up in the back of your neck.

(05:21):

And the whole first week it was here, he sat under that table and you had to push the food under, and then the dish came out, but not the dog. And you'd have to open the door for him to go outside and then get out of the way. It was amazing. The next week he would poke his nose out, food in, nose out, et cetera, et cetera. Next week, half of his body came out from under the table. Another week he's following me around pretty much everywhere I went and keeping his distance. And if you turn towards him, he would give you that.

(05:57):

And then, I don't know, three weeks ago he was a little bit just in back of my hip, and then two weeks ago he was at my hip. And then last week, those of you who are dog people, you'll totally get this non dog. People stay with us. Then he says, and last week, and then he does like a verbal ellipsis, and then he turns towards the dog and takes his hand and starts to scratch the dog's chest. And then the dog just flips over and does it like, and the guy is just scratching the dog's chest. It was beautiful. And then he picks up his verbal ellipsis, starts with, and then last week, and then he picks up on that ellipsis and says, he let me love the hell out of him.

(06:52):

I'm like writing notes on my napkin, and then I have to write. And last week, he let me love the hell out of him. I just think to myself, have I let God love the hell out of me? What will it cost to allow God to love the hell out of me? Do I believe in a God that wants no hell in me if hell is isolation, alienation, non belonging? Do I believe that God wants me to reside in grace in holy communion? Oh man, have I contributed to loving the hell out of anyone today, this week, this month? I don't know. So beautiful. I love that dog. I love the guy. Stories & Other Things Holy.

Joshua Minden (08:05):

Bless the so Lord,

Terry Nelson-Johnson (08:07):

For these thy gifts,

Joshua Minden (08:09):

Which we are about to receive

Terry Nelson-Johnson (08:10):

From thy bounty

Joshua Minden (08:11):

Through Christ our Lord.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (08:13):

Amen.

Joshua Minden (08:17):

"And then last week..."

(08:22):

I'm doing my Lexio Davina thing. "Do I believe in a God who wants no hell in me?" Yeah. Remind me. You in the video, you offered a definition of hell, I think.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (08:38):

Yeah, no, I sort of use Hell and Sin synonymously. Yeah. Yeah. And suggest that Hell and Sin are alienation, isolation, that non belonging, difficulty accessing warmth, sensuousness, delight, trust, forgiveness, mercy, joy. And then Grace or Heaven would be the mirror opposite. Community intimacy, relatively easy access to sensuousness, trust, delight, community connection, creativity.

Joshua Minden (09:37):

It seems like the last several stories that we've looked at together, there's this pretty persistent connection between touch and healing. If you can't touch me, you can't heal me. If you can't let yourself be touched, you can't be healed. Whose quote is that? Is

Terry Nelson-Johnson (09:55):

Rachel Naomi Remen.

Joshua Minden (09:56):

That's right. And I always think of that. You often quote Greg Boyle in the story of the young man who wore the two T-shirts

Terry Nelson-Johnson (10:07):

Yes.

Joshua Minden (10:08):

In the wounds that he was hiding. And you often use that quote with that story. And I just think this relationship that ellipses, this dog had to trust enough to let himself be touched, and not just to be touched, but to be kind of ravaged by love.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (10:29):

That's good.

Joshua Minden (10:31):

There's a risk involved there because when that dog rolled over, he let down all of his guard.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (10:38):

Absolutely. He was the unlikely candidate to let down all his guard too,

Joshua Minden (10:44):

Right?

Terry Nelson-Johnson (10:44):

He must have been hurt pretty significantly.

Joshua Minden (10:48):

Yeah. So what do you want us to draw out from this?

Terry Nelson-Johnson (10:57):

I love for those of you watching at home, we tape the story. We don't tape this conversation in immediate proximity to taping the story. So sometimes it's been weeks or months after we've taped the story. So then we get to watch it again just to refresh our memories. And I'm always delighted. I mean, I have, as many of you know, I've severe A DHD, so it's all new to me like, oh wow, what a story. Who told that story? So it's really enjoyable for me to revisit them. But today I was really struck by that litany I did after we got to the crescendo line of in last week. He let me love the hell out of him. And then there's the will I let love the hell out of me. What would it cost? I love that one. What would it cost to allow God to love the hell out of me? And then do I believe in a God that desires no hell in me? That trifecta of litany was very prayerful for me as I heard it, and it invited me to re-ask those questions.

(12:20):

And as you know, and anybody that is gracious enough to bless us with their presence at stories and other things, holy both personally, and you and I collectively love language and love playing around with language. And so the phrase, get the hell out of here, it's used sort of aggressively. And in this instance, it just parables the whole phrase of hell, he let me love the hell out of him. And you almost have to catch up with the like, wait a minute, what? Oh, that's bad, right? Oh, no, no, that's good. That's good. Oh, that's the best baby. And paradoxically, I think intuitively we would all like the love to be if in fact hell is alienation, isolation, non belonging, lack of confidence, self-consciousness, sexuality gone dormant and creativity, nowhere to be seen, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And we could just, would you like all that to be out of you? Absolutely. The paradox is that we protect ourselves from having it being taken out of us because we're not sure if this is going to work. And at some point we've so identified with our hell that we have a hard time imagining when somebody says something and the other person answers like, oh, I can't imagine.

(14:06):

I think we actually have a hard time imagining what we would be like without our hells, because we think, oh no, in my case, I'm just disorganized. I'm really bad a DD, I mess up other people's lives. I don't return their emails and I'm just a schmuck. That's part of my hell. And I think like, well, what would I be without it or what would I be with it? But I didn't identify it with hell. So we Velcro ourselves to our own hell, and God says, I'd like to love the hell out of you. I gave it the office anyway. Thanks. Though it feels paradoxically risky to allow a God to do what God wants to do, which is to love that out of us. I think the scriptural equivalent for me to this is Lazarus.

Joshua Minden (15:04):

Yes,

Terry Nelson-Johnson (15:05):

And... uh..., Martha, you should get back here soon because it doesn't look good for our brother Lazarus who you love. And then you get the impression that Jesus decides to play the back nine rather than stop the golf game immediately and come home. He doesn't come home in a timely fashion. Martha's pretty pissed off because Lazarus has now in fact died. And her conviction is if Jesus had been here because he's Jesus, then he wouldn't have died. So there's a little tension. Then they go to where they've shown me, where you buried him and the professional grievers are there, which that job intrigues me. I'd like to, I want to be a concession guy at Wrigley Field, and I want to be a professional griever. And then Jesus joins them, which is just, and Jesus wept. Can we just make that a whole chapter? Matthew, mark, Luke, John, and Jesus wept. And then you just sort of imagine how weeping comes in waves and we assume Jesus wept nicely. He was Jesus, but what if he just wept, wept and took him a little bit to let that play itself out, and then when he was able to breathe a little more evenly, did the roll the stone away?

Joshua Minden (16:44):

Yes.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (16:45):

And then Martha, who wants Jesus to advocate on behalf of Lazarus, thinks Jesus is not going too far. Meanwhile, you weren't here and now you're trying to overcompensate. Let's not take the stone away because there'll be a stench. I said a couple episodes ago that my favorite line from scripture was this, and now I'm like, no. Then I said, it's in the team picture. So this is another one in the team picture. There'll be a stench and Jesus won't have it. I love imagining Jesus going towards meeting the stench halfway, like walking towards the stench. I think of my stench and I don't want to walk towards my stench. Now we got Jesus walking towards the stench, and then he and Lazarus and Lazarus, awkward. He has all the burial cloths, and then this line of unbind him last week, he let me love the hell out of him.

(17:54):

And then Jesus is asking Lazareth to allow him to love the hell out of him. I want you free. I want you unbound and be in helles to be bound. We think to get out of hell is to get rid of the debt to the marriage is all of a sudden like fix. There's no more arguments that the kids cooperate and they put their bikes away and that you are financially secure and that your job is flourishing and people respect you and that the church is being churchy, actually being churchy. How did you define it the other week? Why don't we have a church that holds? It was like if all we've done with stories and other things, holy is I got to hear you say that. This is the greatest project ever, dude.

Joshua Minden (18:38):

Oh yeah, a church of holders. Why aren't we a church of holders?

Terry Nelson-Johnson (18:41):

Why aren't we a church of holders? Yes. And

(18:50):

To have the hell loved out of us doesn't mean everything goes smoothly. It means that we've allowed God to join us and all the unm smooth stuff. So it's like, oh, I'll take the cancer away. I'll take this. That's not, we think like hell is perfect, is perfection. It's not. It's the presence of the mystery of the divine in the midst of the imperfect. So in effect, to love the hell out of you is to let me cohabitate with you and then hell won't be hell. Because if love is in hell, then hell isn't. Even if it looks like what it did last week and that's what it's going to be, it's like, oh, I want all this to be completely different. And then there'll be no hell, like no, there's going to be war and stuff and there'll be cancer, and then there'll be stuff with the environment, but God will be with you in it all and then unbind him. You'll be free in the midst of the cancer. You'll be free in the midst of it. Let me unbind you. Let me love the hell out of you. It's very, very powerful for me.

Joshua Minden (19:55):

You asked a question a couple of weeks ago, a few weeks ago now, and again, it keeps coming up in our conversations. How many people have you accompanied? How many people are listening right now who are not liberated, who are humiliated instead of humbled to reference another conversation? How many are bound and unwilling to be unbound?

Terry Nelson-Johnson (20:22):

Yeah.

(20:25):

Parenthetically, just to interrupt, I would have to raise my hand in response to all those who out there is not liberated?

Joshua Minden (20:34):

Oh, oh, yeah. No, not confused.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (20:37):

Carrying burdens.

Joshua Minden (20:39):

I had that conversation with my wife last night. Understand. No, and that's exactly right, and I feel like to a degree, that's why we're sitting here right now doing this.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (20:53):

That's right,

Joshua Minden (20:54):

Is that none of us are perfectly and completely free and unbound.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (21:00):

That's right.

Joshua Minden (21:00):

Because what will be fulfilled in the end, what will be fulfilled has not yet been until then we imperfectly. I love how you always caveat. We imperfectly sincerely, genuinely happenstancely come together to tell more stories and other things. Holy and mindful of all of that. Maybe we should say one more time.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (21:38):

Oh, we absolutely should.

Joshua Minden (21:40):

Bless us, Oh Lord,

Terry Nelson-Johnson (21:41):

For these thy gifts,

Joshua Minden (21:42):

Which we continue to receive

Terry Nelson-Johnson (21:43):

from thy bounty,

Joshua Minden (21:45):

through Christ our Lord.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (21:46):

Amen.

Joshua Minden (21:47):

Amen. Yeah, I can round the mountain too, buddy.

(22:01):

Thank you for risking another encounter with stories and other things wholly. There's a lot to unpack from this week's episode, and if you're not getting our weekly emails, you're missing out on fantastic tools to help you in that work. Each episode is paired with a written reflection along with prayer prompts. We lovingly call gracer sizes. So if you haven't yet, go to our website stories and other things holy.com and sign up. Friends, I pray this week that you and I will risk believing in a God that once no hell in us stories and other things, holy.