Joshua Minden (00:03):

Hi there, and welcome back to another episode of Stories & Other Things Holy. I'm your host, Joshua Minden. And this week our principal storyteller, Dr. Terry Nelson Johnson, shares a tender story that ties together themes of play, boldness, pain, parenting, and intimacy. Afterward, Terry and I sit down for a conversation full of exploration where we try to peel back even just a few layers of the nature of love and the gift of incarnate wisdom. So I invite you to take a deep breath, wiggle your toes, and gather round as we encounter more Stories & Other Things Holy.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (00:56):

Stories & Other Things Holy. How does that phrase go from the mouth of babes? I had one of those experiences of from the mouth of babes, and the story involves my son, who at the time of the story, I don't know, it must've been seven. Yeah, something around seven. And I was invited to proclaim the homily at my best friend's wedding in New York. And my wife had proceeded me with our daughter to go spend some time with her family. She was going to meet me in New York and we were going to celebrate this good friend's wedding together. He was currently at Union Theological School in New York. It's a very prestigious theological school, and he was the only Catholic in his graduating class. So a lot of people coming to the wedding would be non-Catholics who were very well versed in both scripture and in preaching, et cetera.

(02:06):

So I was feeling a little pressure, can the Catholics bring it? You know what I'm saying? Can the Catholics bring it when it comes to preaching? So I'm getting geared up and my friend says, I know it's going to be great. You got to bring it home in about 11 minutes. I'm like, we're good. I'm fine. I got it. 11 minutes, baby. So I was beginning to compose what I wanted it to be, a really fine homily, but then internally it went to not just a fine homily, but the quintessential homily. You know what I'm saying? I mean the homily that would bring all the Protestants, God bless you, to their feet, go some amens and can I get a witness? So I'm writing an homily, it's not going well. I dunno. I usually can sort of come up with an idea, nothing. And now time is factor.

(02:59):

I'm going to leave in two days and I got nothing. I do all my work on legal pads. I'm at the dining room table and I'm just writing frantically and doing that classic, just ripping things off and doing 'em into balls and throwing them. And my son comes, he gets up in the morning and I'm already working, and he's like, dad, no school today. You want to play? Usually, I don't know. I don't want to brag or nothing. I'm a soft spot. When one of my kids says, do you want to play? I'm like, are you kidding me? Of course I want to play uncharacteristic. I'm like, no, I can't play. Have to write the quintessential wedding homily. He's like, whatever. Why don't you call Gabby, ask her to come over and play, and that'd be great. So Gabby's our neighbor. She's a year older than Ian.

(03:47):

They're good pals. And I can hear Ian in the phone. Yeah, you can come here, but you better watch out. My dad is crabby. I'm like, whatever. Just have Gabby come over and play. So Gabby comes over, they go upstairs and they're upstairs. It's too quiet and a more seasoned dad would do what's going on up there, but it's quiet. I'm writing the quintessential homily or failing to write the quintessential holo. And then the quiet eventually evolves into this noise, and I don't know what it is, but it's like a bunch of thumps and then cackling, and then there's a pause, and then there's more thumps, a little more pronounced, and then much more cackling by about the fourth try. It occurred to me that they had taken the comforter off my wife's and my bed and they were bobsledding down our stairs. Now, I have to admit that I've done this.

(04:40):

I mean, not recently, but this is a good game. You know what I'm saying? And if you heard the laughter when they hit the landing, you would be hard pressed. And I should have said, as a more seasoned dad, someone's going to lose an eye in there. Why do we say that? Have you seen a kid lose an eye? No, but they're going to lose something clearly if I let this continue. But the laughter was so great. The end of the story is predictable. They're creating some kind of launching ramp at the top, like a catapult to go. They're coming down and break next speed. And I don't know what run it was, but they're coming down. And then you both hear and feel.

(05:25):

You hear the sound of skull on wood and you can feel it in the house. And we have little banister things down the side of the stairs, and then at the bottom there's like a four by four, and you had to figure that a head or something hit the four by four. And rather than cackling, there was silence. I mean, that kind of silence that makes everybody hold your breath, put my pen down, walked to the landing of the stairs, and Gabby is standing in the corner and Ian is laid out. I mean, he is just laid out sort of the comics when you're seeing the stars and everything. And Gabby is like, I don't know. I went to the bathroom when I came out and Ian was just lying there to go. So I laid down next to Ian, I put his head on my thigh and I put my hand on his little head and you could feel the swelling.

(06:18):

I mean, my hand was leaving his head while my hand is on it, so his bed and he's all woozy. So I told Gabby, Gabby, go get a washcloth. And I'm trying to figure out should I call the doc hospital now? And what about concussion protocol? All the stuff, my wife, the nurse practitioner's not here, maybe good, maybe whatever. Get the wet wash cloth. And then I start to say lame dad, things like Ian, it's going to be okay. And his eyes are sort of dilated, but they're coming back and I can see he's clearing up a little bit and I assure him he's going to be okay in that dad kind of way that you don't know what you're talking about. And then I say to him, I'm really, really sorry, Ian. That was a bad game. I should have stopped the game. When he hears bad game, his whole sort of being in the world shifted.

(07:07):

And he sort of bit his lip, and Mike shook his head to clear it out. And then he wooly stood up. Then he grabbed a corner of the comforter and he turned to Gabby's like, Gabby, come with me. And then he walks up the stairs, gets to the top of the stairs, pulls the comforter up, gets Gabby in her ready position, and then he turns towards me and he says, dad still has the thing going. Dads, that wasn't a bad game. That was a good game. That was a really good game. Dad, one more time, please, dad.

(07:41):

Then I did the only logical thing at the time. Sure. And then they went down about 56 marks in the middle of which I asked if they wanted to stop for lunch. And they looked at me like I was crazy. Why would we stop for lunch when we're in the middle of a feast? Are you kidding me? And then I went and wrote, perhaps not the quintessential marriage homily, but a really, really good one. And the centerpiece of it was, I just had the privilege of watching my son, his friend doing in their little life, their life of play and imagination. What I strain and awkwardly and oftentimes fail to do with my wife and our marriage, which is to create life and absorb pain.

(08:28):

The nature of a marriage is to create a bunch of life kids and life beyond kits. And then you care for that life. And then there's pain that comes with it. But because you love the game, because you love the kids, you absorb the pain necessary and the absorption of pain is not like self-inflicted the nature of love. It's the nature of creation. So I'm really grateful to Ian and Gabby for the robustness of their play. And they're teaching me that the nature of love is to create life. And in the creation of life, invariably you're asked to absorb some pain. So what's love? Yeah, story's another thing. Only

Joshua Minden (09:29):

Bless us, oh Lord,

Terry Nelson-Johnson (09:31):

for these thy gifts,

Joshua Minden (09:32):

which we continue to receive

Terry Nelson-Johnson (09:34):

from thy bounty

Joshua Minden (09:36):

through Christ our Lord. Amen. Amen.

(09:38):

That was a good game, dad. That was a really good game.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (09:42):

No, it was a really good game.

Joshua Minden (09:44):

His way of being in the world shifted. Even watching you re-listen to the story, something about that you had a visceral reaction to hearing yourself say that.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (10:00):

Yeah.

Joshua Minden (10:02):

Share with me what stirred in you there.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (10:09):

It's emotional for me just thinking about it. I love him so much, and I love who he is in the world, and I'm prejudiced because this part of him is consonant with me, a part of me, and he's doing it in his own way, but there's a fierceness about him and it don't take that from me. And so while on the one hand it was ridiculous, just letting him do it was ridiculous. The prospect of letting him continue to do it was ridiculous squared. And I was so happy that he wanted to do it, that fierce part of him, like, no, don't take this from me. And he went from being a 7-year-old little kid who was in pain to this magnificent spirit in the world of like, oh, we're going to play. We're going to keep playing because play outweighs this pain. He anticipated the conclusion or the tagline of my story just with his like, oh, no, no, no, no, we're going to go now. And I felt like it wasn't the first time and certainly has not been the last, but there's moments as a parent when you perceive your kid as bigger than you are, as more magnificent than you are as the adult in the room. Not that I was being irresponsible, although maybe slightly irresponsible, but he was a 7-year-old sort of spirit giant

(11:57):

At the time. And I recognized it and I felt humbled. We did a piece on humbled recently. I felt humbled by being a associated with him. Yeah, it's a very powerful experience as a parent. And I wonder if God ever had that experience with Jesus. He's got it. I wonder if God ever felt small. And again, we tap into, if you haven't listened to episode humility, this would be the time to do it. It wasn't the slightest bit humiliated by Ian, how could you be smarter than me?

(12:44):

It was just this, his spirit right now is magnificent, and his commitment to have fallen in love with something of profound value for him, which was energy, basically, he fell in love with energy and play, and he would not, Brooke, that being taken from him. And so his whole being shifted in the world. That's what it was. Beautiful that you caught that moment. Yeah.

Joshua Minden (13:19):

The other thing that really stood out to me, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on our, gosh, you said it, why would we stop for lunch in the middle of a feast? Forgive me for where I'm about to go. But you mentioned earlier, Ken, the Catholics bring it in the realm of preaching. And I'm like, as much as I am happy I'm a Catholic, I sometimes feel like we are really good at stopping for lunch in the middle of a feast. I mean, I'm just saying like, oh no. Oh no. I know we're having a divine, mystical, transformative experience, but we have to go do liturgy now as if those things aren't, or whatever. Or I have to go do my devotion now. It's like, but we're having a divine, mystical, transformative encounter and you need to go pray.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (14:21):

Or the parking lot needs to be emptied and replenished for the 11:30 A.M. Mass. So let's keep going here. That's so beautiful.

Joshua Minden (14:31):

Wrap it up ladies. Wrap it

Terry Nelson-Johnson (14:32):

Up. Yeah, exactly.

Joshua Minden (14:34):

And my mind went to Martha and Mary, which again, not to be too saccharin about it, but it's like why are we going to, we're sitting with the master. I love how you said that you love him, Ian and who he is in the world and that fierceness. So it's like why I'm in my fierceness. Why am I going to stop manifesting my fierceness to have some Lunchables?

Terry Nelson-Johnson (15:03):

Yeah. And we used this quote a couple weeks ago, Emily Dickinson Enough is not as good as a feast. I just love it so much. So many people don't know the feast, so they don't realize that they are eating 70% lean ground beef when there's a filet in the world.

(15:31):

And they haven't been introduced to that. And so they're willing to like, well, I guess this is it. Like, no, this is not it. And it's the take Ian to a very playground that was built with appropriate safety in mind and get him to the 6-year-old slide, and he's going to go down. It's all going to be fine, but he's not going to have this kind of, it was the stairs and the comforter and the drama and the risk and the potential injury and the entanglement with Gabby and the tumbling. It was all the too muchness that got him to the, that was the feast. The feast is like, can we do this? I don't know. Can we go fast? I don't know. Should we do a forward roll? I don't know. Should we try? And collectively, that's the feast. And then if Jesus didn't know this, we wouldn't have gotten to the resurrection. That enough is not as good as the feast like heaven. We wasn't, isn't this enough? Isn't like, holy Saturday enough. No, no. We need to keep playing. There's more here to be had. Let's do this. Let's do this.

(16:54):

Oh man.

Joshua Minden (16:57):

Have you ever been to a bowling alley with children, young children?

Terry Nelson-Johnson (17:02):

Yes.

Joshua Minden (17:02):

So are you familiar with bumper bowling?

Terry Nelson-Johnson (17:05):

Oh, absolutely.

Joshua Minden (17:06):

Alright, so this is how I feel. You just referenced risk in relationship to the staircase, right?

Terry Nelson-Johnson (17:13):

Yes.

Joshua Minden (17:14):

And you have a couple of opinions about the role of risk in our spiritual life.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (17:20):

I do indeed.

Joshua Minden (17:22):

I sometimes feel like we're really tempted to play bumper bowling with Jesus

Terry Nelson-Johnson (17:26):

Here, here

Joshua Minden (17:26):

Versus take risks

Terry Nelson-Johnson (17:28):

Here. Here.

Joshua Minden (17:28):

I'd love to hear you kind of share your thought on that in this context.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (17:36):

Yeah. I don't think I've used the quote in our stories and other things. Holy if I have. It's a great quote. So enjoy it. Again, it's from Thomas Woodward, who's an Episcopal priest, unbelievably beautiful guy. And the scene that he sets up is Jesus walking to glg, Gotha. And there's a bunch of therapists and lawyers and memoirs who are all counseling Jesus to not push it quite this far.

(18:15):

And so the lawyers are like, we could get a win-win here. We could both get out of this in a way that we're going to profit from. And the memoirs, this is not a good end of the story. And the therapists are like trauma, trauma. And in the meantime, the guy's carrying the cross and he's like, I got to focus here people, and they will not relent. And they're all telling them what to do. And all of their suggestions are constraint. Don't take this too far. And eventually Jesus has had it, and he sort of throws the cross down, which I love. Rather than drop it out of fatigue, he just like bam. And then he turns on them and he says, you're asking me to live by small rules created by small people to keep the world small and manageable. I refuse. And then there's this mono, a mono. I just imagine him making eye contact with all these people that are trying to invite him to let's not get carried away here.

(19:18):

That's the point. To be carried, literally to be carried away from the crucifixion into the resurrection, carried away. And then Jesus picks the cross up and is like, I'm going like, oh man. And so the bumper image is like, no, no, no, let's, let's not risk the gutters. I'm like, no, let's go for it. What does a strike mean? If it's the product of the bumpers and there's a place for bumpers, but not all the time. And then that last piece, my son taught me the wisdom of creating life. If you choose to love, then the nature of life is creativity. Nature of love is creativity.

(20:14):

Yeah.

(20:14):

Love creates. And then once it creates, you have to take care of it. And then there's going to be pain. It's the nature of it, even if it's just having to say goodbye to what you created, whatever. But along the way, there's usually people are falling down, there's bandages, there's metaphorically or otherwise, there have been in this project, the stories, things wholly project. And then there's moments of euphoria and excitement and dreaming. And then there's like, oh, we need to stay up to 12 o'clock to finish the next episode, to get it out on Monday, whatever. And by the way, you haven't come across with the reflection questions, but fity is the free flowing of new life. It's such a, I just like saying the word makes me feel cool. If you love, then you contribute to fity, the free flowing of new life. And then you're obligated. You are invited, challenged to care for that which you created. And if you do that, there is going to be pain. The way that you contextualize the pain as you remember that it was created in love and it's moving towards love. And so it's contextualized. Of course there's pain. It's the nature of creating new life. But rather than tolerate that, and that's why a absorb the pain, bring it into yourself so it doesn't have the last word,

(21:47):

And love gets her arms around the pain. It's why you stay up till four in the morning holding the kid who has ear affection like, I'm with you. This is hard for both of us. I haven't slept either. We'll get to the doctor. There's stuff we can do with this. It's why you go out on a date with your own 12-year-old daughter who didn't get invited to the party. The last thing you want to do on a Friday night as a 47-year-old dad is go out on a date with your 12-year-old daughter. You're tired too, but you do because you created the life and now you're in relationship with it, and now there's pain, and then the love has to get her arms around the pain, create life and absorb the pain associated with the life you created because you created it out of love. It's very, very powerful. And 7-year-old boy, 6-year-old boy taught me it. And then I got to go preach to the Protestant brothers and sisters still telling the story. My good friend Ed and his wife were like, yeah, we get together. They're like, oh yeah, that was the one about the stairs. I'm like, yeah, baby. 30 years later.

Joshua Minden (22:56):

Hey, that was it. Oh, so you're saying your son wrote the quintessential homily.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (23:04):

Yeah. My son,

Joshua Minden (23:05):

(I'm sorry)

Terry Nelson-Johnson (23:05):

wrote the quintessential homily. Sorry about that.

Joshua Minden (23:08):

No, it's all good. I love it. Oh, praise God. Well, you know, brother, I don't dunno that we can do much more than that.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (23:20):

I don't think so. I think that might be it.

Joshua Minden (23:22):

Thus we say, Les is so Lord,

Terry Nelson-Johnson (23:25):

For these thy gifts,

Joshua Minden (23:27):

Which we continue to receive ,

Terry Nelson-Johnson (23:28):

from thy bounty

Joshua Minden (23:30):

through Christ our Lord. Amen.

(23:41):

We are so thankful that you decided to join us for another episode of Stories & Other Things Holy. If this is your first time with us, I invite you to visit our website: https://storiesandotherthingsholy.com/

(23:55):

Sign up for our weekly email newsletter where you'll receive links to each new episode, a written reflection based on the same themes, as well as Gracercises, which are prayer prompts that we offer you to help take the themes of this episode deeper into your reflection and prayer. You can follow us on Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, or Facebook. You can watch new episodes on YouTube or Spotify, and you can listen on your favorite podcast app. So, until next time, keep playing really good games, absorbing pain, and being love in the world.

(24:38):

Stories & Other Things Holy.