Terry Nelson-Johnson (00:05):

Stories & Other Things Holy, this story deeply, deeply, deeply confirms the conviction that our destiny is to be held and to be healed is to be held and to be liberated is to be held. And the story involves mostly my daughter. And at the time of the story, she's maybe seven or eight. And my wife and I were poised to go on a second honeymoon. And the story of our first honeymoon is so funny and beautiful, and I'd love to tell it sometime, but not right now, just trust me. So let me just say this a second. Honeymoon was an order, so it was, I don't know, 15 years after we got married or something. And our bags are packed, the kids' bags are packed. They're going to go stay with somebody and this is it. We're going to Mexico. It's going to be beautiful.

(01:09):

Some hammock. Anyway, I'm psyched. And we get a call at three 11 in the morning and you got to hope it's a prank call. And it wasn't a prank call. My mother-in-law indicating that if we probably wanted to see her dad, she should come to Philadelphia directly. He'd had a heart attack. So we get up in the morning, we tell the kids we're going to go to Philadelphia, to grandma and grandpa's rather than you going to your people's house and mom and dad going to Mexico, Philadelphia, Mexico, whatever. So we get in the plane and we're going to Philadelphia. And my brother-in-law had said prior to us getting on the plane, you guys have to decide before you land, whether you want your kids to see their grandfather in the condition that he's currently in. We've decided not to have our kids see grandpop because we want them to remember him as vital, which I thought was fascinating and respected it.

(02:15):

He's the dad. Holly and I had a conversation and we said, we want our kids to say goodbye to their grandpa and to recognize that death is part of the big picture of life, even though it's painful and didn't want it to be overwhelming. So we prepped the kids and then we got to the hospital room and it was a little overwhelming for everybody, as you can imagine. And so at some point, the kids were going to be in there for five minutes, and I told them, you have about a minute left, so whatever you have to do to say goodbye grandpop, you can do that. So they all do beautiful things and it was just really, really, really tender. And then we hosted the rest the weekend, and Holly and I were particularly involved in the liturgy and the leaf taking, et cetera. So we're on the plane on the way home and exhausted emphasis on exhausted.

(03:13):

And we turned to each other and said, wow, well, at least we think we made one good decision, which was to have the kids say goodbye to grandpop, which I think was important for them and probably important to Grandpop too. So we get home, put the kids to bed, and then we go to bed, cashed out, go to bed at quarter to eight or whatever. In the middle of the night, there are screams coming from Claire's room that are just like hair raising terror. So we both run in there and we're like, Claire, what's wrong? She cannot talk. She does not want to talk. She just insists, I want to come sleep in your bed. And there was no room for argument from her place and we're exhausted. So we're like, Claire, whatever. Come on. So she comes, she sleeps between us The next night she just assumes the position of the middle of the bed has all of her stuff, the light and the books and water, what have you.

(04:11):

She's all set. So we don't want to make a big deal of it. She goes to sleep. We try to put her to bed the next night in her bed and she'll have none of it and is clearly terrified, like shaking. So we call get resources, a therapist. Claire starts to talk to the therapist, but she thinks that it's not going well apparently. So after about the 10 day mark, I'm like, this can't continue like this. So the next night when Claire brought all of her stuff in, I had a sleeping bag next to the bed and I had her water and her pillow and her stuff, her little thingy, the stuffy thing, the huggy thing. Claire's a little offended. Like what? I'm like, Claire, you're welcome to stay in our room, but not in her bed right now. I didn't want to go into the theological underpinnings of this, but Claire, you're in the bed, you're in the floor, and she's not happy, but at least she's close to mom and dad.

(05:08):

So gradually over the course of a couple of weeks, I began to take the sleeping bag and just move it incrementally closer to her room and she would always move it back. And now I'm frustrated. And how do you host a conversation with your 7-year-old daughter about the need for conjugal visit? You know what I'm saying? I mean, come on, give us a break here, Claire. No, no, no. So I'm at the point of this, can't go on this, can't go on this. It's about six weeks into it I'm down having, and we try to bring it up with Claire and she's like, no. And the therapist says she's just not ready. And it's clearly there was deep trauma in her experience of seeing her grandfather in that condition and we're like, oh, I thought we made such a good decision. And so now we're six weeks in. Everybody's tired. And I'm at breakfast with Claire and Claire says, dad, how old are you when you go to college? Like 14? I'm like, maybe.

(06:08):

She's like, well, when you go to college, do you have a roommate? I'm like, usually, are they nice? I'm like, oh God, please pray. God, Claire, that you have a nice roommate. She says, well, when I have a roommate, do you think they'll let me sleep in a sleeping bag next to their bed? I'm like, I don't know. Claire maybe says, dad, how old are you when you go to college's like 17? I'm like, well, we did the college thing. And Claire says, dad, how old are you when you get married? Like 19? I'm like, no, Claire, not 19. You're like 40. Whatever. Why? It's like, well, when I get married, I just think maybe I have an idea when I get married, we can invite you to come live with us and my husband and I will sleep in bed and you can sleep on a sleeping bag next door, our bed.

(07:05):

First of all, if the time comes, you're not going to like that plan. Secondly, I probably won't either. Then I said, Claire, why all the questions about sleeping arrangements? And she gets really quiet. She puts down her spoon, she pushes her honey nut Cheerios to the right. She crawls across the table and then just tumbles into my lap, into my arms, and then she just sobs. You know that the paradox of not wanting your child to be in pain and the gratitude that they're spilling their pain onto your chest and just heaving and crying until they're exhausted.

(07:53):

And it was kairos time. Was it three minutes, five minutes? It was an entire shirt soaked minutes. And then I said, Claire, why all the questions about sleeping arrangements? And she said, bad things happen out there, daddy. I don't know if I'll ever be able to sleep on myself again. Can you just keep holding me and do I have to go to school? No, Claire, you don't have to go to school and I'll hold you for as long as you want. She stayed in my lap for maybe an hour, hour and a half. We were quiet, no distractions, no devices, no nothing, just holding.

(08:41):

She says, daddy, maybe I will go to school because they're doing something cool at recess. I'm like, okay, Claire, that's great. And then I said, your lunch is in the fridge. She said, did you cut the kiwi? Right? I think I cut the kiwi right? Claire Boom gave it to her. So that night, it's a time for baths, the system, the baths, and who did their brush, their whatever they're supposed to brush. So I get the sleeping bag, I put it out, I get all the stuff, and then I don't know where Claire is, and I hear from her room, daddy, aren't you going to come kiss me goodnight? I'm like, what gives you a good night? Yeah, baby, I'm going to kiss you a good night. So I go into her room and she's like, yeah, she was seven weeks ago. She was like, this is normal.

(09:27):

And so she says, kiss me. Good night, Eddie. Thank you for holding me this morning. Okay, bad things happen out there, daddy. I don't know if I'll ever be able to sleep on myself again. Maybe after you let your dad hold you for an hour, hour and a half. Isn't it Rachel, Naomi, Raymond, who says, "if you can't touch me, you can't heal me. And, if I can't be touched, I can't be healed." I don't understand that. But I think it's really, really true on some deep level being touched in the realm of the soul and being held. Thank God for Claire. As I tell the story, Claire is the mother of a four month old who slept as reported nine hours and 17 minutes last night. So there you go. Amen. Brothers and sisters,

Joshua Minden (10:40):

Bless us all,

Terry Nelson-Johnson (10:41):

Lord, for these thy gifts,

Joshua Minden (10:45):

Which we continue to receive

Terry Nelson-Johnson (10:48):

From thy bounty

Joshua Minden (10:49):

Through Christ our Lord.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (10:50):

Amen.

Joshua Minden (10:51):

Amen. Hey brother.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (10:58):

Hey brother.

Joshua Minden (10:58):

To be heald, no, to be healed is to be held. To be liberated is to be held. Just saying it's a pretty strong, pretty strong opening.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (11:21):

Yeah. I think it was proceeded just before those two lines with our destiny is to be held. So that even strengthens it even further.

Joshua Minden (11:32):

Yeah. What do you as a dad think, what is it about holding Claire for that hour, hour and a half, whatever that was? What is that? What is the shift?

Terry Nelson-Johnson (12:08):

I don't know if I'll get this right. It's a really beautiful quote that I had revisited relatively recently, and so much has been lost. So much has been stolen. I must cast by lot with those who improbably with no particular power, commit themselves to reconstituting the world. And I think that experience of being held constitutes the soul. After much has been lost, after much has been stolen, I to be held then repairs us. It's not the only means of repair, but it's a significant one and profoundly underused because of our radical discomfort and for all the abuse that has been done to. And so it's very elusive means of healing, but I'm just, and I'm probably prejudiced, but I'm just so convinced that ultimately to be held as our destiny. And that while on the one hand it took I Claire's six weeks to render herself available to the embrace, to be held, that pales in comparison to those who have been waiting and avoiding and aching for an embrace for six months. Six years, 60 years, whose entire being is suspended, stuck in liminal space after the death, before the birth. It's one thing for a 7-year-old to surrender into a six week an embrace, waited for six weeks. It's another thing altogether for an adult type who does some version of like, yeah, I got held back there a little bit. It didn't go well

(14:44):

And I will not be held again. Or there's no one to hold me. There's no holder. And so good theory, dude, but it's not happening for me. It's a tremendous anguish.

Joshua Minden (15:04):

Yeah, it's really interesting that expression. There's no holder. There's no one to hold me. The first thought that came to my mind and kind of in the realm of almost like spiritual warfare esque, I was like, well, that's a lie, but out of respect for the person who is feeling that I want to temper my response and recognizing, no, there are people that genuinely heard that and said, that's right. Yeah, that's a painful,

Terry Nelson-Johnson (15:43):

Extremely painful

Joshua Minden (15:44):

Place to be. I don't think I am. But if I'm taking us aside, you just throw something at my head, but I can't help but notice this. It's our destiny to be held, but you often make reference to being held in another context and knowing ourselves as being held in the certain, sometimes ambiguous, loving arms of God. And this is your definition of baptism. Well, not just your definition of baptism, but So I'm kind of curious, is that the connection, is that the unspoken connection here when you say it's our destiny to be held, are you referring to baptism in some way?

Terry Nelson-Johnson (16:48):

Absolutely not in the way that most people would think about, obviously.

Joshua Minden (16:52):

Oh, fair. Yeah. You're not talking about pouring.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (16:57):

Yeah.

Joshua Minden (16:57):

Spoonfuls of water.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (16:58):

Yeah. So that definition that you referenced when I talk about baptism is you're baptized to the extent that you know yourself as radically irrevocably, recklessly tenderly, passionately loved by the author of love. And then the corollary definition of baptism is you're baptized to the extent that you know yourself as held by a mother God who knows exactly what she's doing,

(17:32):

And subsequently rocks you and whispers to you. Okay? It's okay. And invites you, cajoles you to surrender into the embrace, utterly surrender and the privilege of having a visceral experience of holding a human body. Mostly not exclusively actually. Actually, no, not exclusively. But there's a moment in an embrace where the embrace E has a decision to make. And the decision is, can I trust this? Can I give myself over to this? Can I surrender to this so that the two shall become one so that holy communion transpires so that which has been wounded can be healed.

(18:39):

And if you're the holder, it's an extraordinarily powerful moment. And it's a gift I think of just being in the position as the holder. Often I've had the privilege of receiving the gift of people giving themselves over to the embrace, and it's like Christmas on steroids, the kind of privilege and gift that goes with that. And the legions of people who don't have access to that experience because either hurt or of a constrained imagination or in their mind's eye as a result of not having any holder candidates. And then the can sound pop psychology or cheap. But I think the answer to that, there's no candidates, no holder candidates. I often go to like, what about a poem though? What about a sunrise or sunset in Michigan is on the beach in Michigan looking west and one of those slow ones where there's a cloud cover and then it goes below the cloud cover and then the sun is just huge. And then the sun holds you.

Joshua Minden (20:12):

Yes.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (20:13):

What about the sound of a baby laughing, just that kind. Have a nine month old grandson, and he is at the cackling point now. I mean, he just does that. It's just this unbelievable, oh my God. Silence. What about being held by silence? I mean deep abiding silence being held by one paragraph of a book that you might as well have written it, that whoever the author is, you and that author are in this kind of extraordinary place of union and they wrote what you already knew and you get to see the words and you're like, your whole body just says, amen, sister. And she wrote it 150 years ago, and you and she are like, I got you. I got incense for me incense in church at a funeral, a moment of beauty. The celebrant at a funeral invites the wife to incense the body of her husband because the settlement knows she's the one that knew this body. She's the one that knows the holiness of this body, which just has been liberated and lost simultaneously. I,

Joshua Minden (21:40):

It's so good.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (21:41):

Over and over and

Joshua Minden (21:46):

Just in myriad

Terry Nelson-Johnson (21:48):

Ways. Yeah,

Joshua Minden (21:50):

So good. Can't so many of those examples just stir pictures. Pictures in my mind. I have a dear friend of mine who's is from the order, a caption friend of mine who is a poet, and he rekindled my love for poetry. God

Terry Nelson-Johnson (22:12):

Bless him.

Joshua Minden (22:13):

Two phrases come to mind talking about the child's laughter. He wrote this beautiful poem about, it was about Eucharist. He was at mass, but he describes the laughter of a newborn babe, like liquid joy. And there's just something like this baby just started laughing kind of spontaneously, and it totally embodied the energy of the moment, the joy of the moment. And the other one, the first poem I remember him sharing with me was called The Wind in the Rock. And this idea that somehow there was life even in this is still seemingly inanimate object. The other thing I noticed a little earlier is you talked about being held and holding. And I got really excited because we talked in one of our more recent conversations about this idea of Jesus going, first Jesus kind of ushering us in or letting us know that it's okay. He went first so we can go. Right?

Terry Nelson-Johnson (23:34):

That's good.

Joshua Minden (23:34):

And I saw these two paths. I saw these two paths in which God is inviting us. There's the taking risks. Jesus went first, and I get to let myself be held. I get to give myself over to being held. But then there's also that part we talked about, about dancing with God and participating fully, being a full participant and getting to hold. And I was like, how incredible that God has orchestrated this incredible, this gift of love to both create the circumstances for me to be held. And in opening myself up to that and what comes with that to potentially grow into and to evolve into someone who can hold. I can say from personal experience, you are, I almost said one hell of a holder. But that seems, oddly, that seems even less appropriate. You were one risky holder. Let me tell you, brother.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (24:49):

Oh, that's great. I love that.

Joshua Minden (24:52):

And I'm so

Terry Nelson-Johnson (24:53):

Grateful the gift you have received, give us a gift.

Joshua Minden (24:56):

Oh yeah.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (24:58):

To be held in order to hold. You have to have been held.

Joshua Minden (25:06):

Yeah. Oh, that's

Terry Nelson-Johnson (25:08):

Good. And then the just so powerful to me, Rachel, Naomi, me, Raymond's, peace on. If you can't touch me, you can't heal me. And if you can't be touched, you can't be healed. And she uses touch. I'm using hold as a synonym for that. And this is the third time I've said it, so it could sound repetitive and you might edit it. God bless you. But there are legions and legions of people who don't know this grace that we're talking about. And people reduce it to like, I'm not talking about the erotic, although I'm free to talk about the erotic, and there's a correlation between this and the erotic. I'm talking about being held,

(26:10):

And it's the product of hurt and a dearth of any real visceral education around this to communicate to someone's body the nourishment that's associated with being held. And if people don't know that William James, the good just tastes better, and Emily Dickinson enough is not as good as a feast. So the good in this is the experience of being held and the feast is the experience of being held. And so many people don't have it. Not only do they not have it, they experience being held with loss, with violation, with awkwardness, with imposition. And then how do you heal that? It's just so psychologically fascinating, but tragic in its costs spiritually and relationally and otherwise.

(27:30):

Then there's that mysterious part of this, the eschatological part of it, of the song from Sarah Thompson, oh, my Children. And it's the simplest song, and the first half of it is innocent and beautiful enough. Oh, my children come to me. The whole song is a minute and 30 seconds. Maybe we could use it for free use. Sarah. Oh, my children come to me. Oh, my children come to me and I will hold you. And I just get Liz's like, that's the most beautiful song ever. Let's just put that on loop for me. Oh, my children come to me and I will hold you. And then she does this parable thing because the last third of the song is her question on behalf of God, and Will you hold me?

Sara Thomsen (28:21):

(Music) "And will you hold me? Come to me. Will you hold me? Come to me. Will you hold me? Hold me, hold me, hold me. Come to me. Come to me. Come to me."

Terry Nelson-Johnson (28:56):

How courageous would you have to be in terms of your sort of theological imagination, to give yourself permission to imagine a God who aches to be held and that I'm invited to be a holder of God and that this is something that God needs. God needs nothing. God is self-contained. God is Lord of lords, king of kings, all that stuff that you guys know. But what if God is a candidate to be held? It just sends shivers up my spine

Joshua Minden (29:38):

And the place I go is God hungers or longs. I forget how you phrased it a second ago, but God longs to be held through you. It's not, it's never been an abstract notion, but I go back to Thomas Merton, what is it in his, I remember I bought the book many, many years ago. No man is an island

Terry Nelson-Johnson (30:08):

Classic,

Joshua Minden (30:09):

Sat on the edge of my bed one morning and read the introduction, not the first chapter, the introduction to the introduction. I don't think I ever read the rest of the book because it took me years to comprehend this image. I mean, it's so simple in hindsight, but in the moment, I just wasn't ready. I wasn't equipped. But it's this idea, God wants to reveal God's self most fully to you through me. And God wants to reveal God's self most fully to me through you. And yes, God has all the ability in the world to reveal God's self to me directly and to you directly. But it's that desire of God to work in us through us as us. And so when you hold me, you are holding God. And when I hold you, I am holding God. And that's why, because where I went was like, why aren't we a

Terry Nelson-Johnson (31:08):

Church of holding? Why aren't we a church of holder?

Joshua Minden (31:14):

I'm involved.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (31:15):

That's a really good question.

Joshua Minden (31:16):

I'm involved in my home diocese in healing prayer ministry. I believe in the power of prayer in God's ability to heal through prayer. And I ask myself right now in this chair, why aren't we able to hold one another? Why can't God heal my sister or my brother? The way God healed Claire, in your lap?

Terry Nelson-Johnson (31:41):

Yeah. Here

Joshua Minden (31:44):

You used the word liberation at the beginning. Liberate to be liberated is to be held. There was something liberated and clear. Absolutely. After that hour and a half, something was fundamentally different. And I feel like how is that not our model for church? I

Terry Nelson-Johnson (32:07):

You're preaching to the choir, dude. Oh, I know. I'm completely affirming that. What's the scripture? That beautiful scene, the leper. I think it's a leper mark. I don't know. You'll find it for me.

Joshua Minden (32:20):

Yeah.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (32:22):

If you want to, you can heal me.

Joshua Minden (32:23):

Yes.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (32:25):

My favorite. I think it's my no. One of my favorite lines from scripture in the team picture. Of course, I want to Jesus' response. Of course, I want to. Yes. Next line. Jesus reached out and touched the man, didn't do a sermon, didn't do a parable. And I would like to suggest he held the dude. It wasn't like et with the big purple finger thing going.

(32:55):

I was in Albuquerque at one of the first gatherings of Richard Rohrs Living School. And there was a lot of excitement. It was the first cohort, first year of this school, and there was 60 or 80 of us or something. And it was very exciting. At the same hotel was a woman, and she was just portrayed as the hugging nun or hugging sister or something. And so we were on one floor and the hugging sister was on the other. And so I took a little break from the living school to go check out what's this about. And there was this long line, just snaking, and I separated the little curtain so I could peek in. All these people were just in line, and the hugging sister was at the front, and then she was just open her arms and the person would go and be held by the hugging sister. And I just stayed for like three, but it took four minutes. So this was not like a little pat on that. She held these people. And to be honest with you, I thought to myself, that is a good gig. I could do that dog and sister and I could rotate, tap each other out. Oh my gosh. And then the other thing, the story about Claire, we don't hold one another only in context of loss or hurt, but we do hold each other in context of loss and hurt.

(34:44):

And to render yourself available to be held is vulnerable by definition because your private parts are now exposed. So when you open your arms to be held, there's a lot of places that could be hurt here as opposed to getting into a fetal position, which does the exact opposite. It protects the private parts, my kidneys, my groin. And so it's a protective instinct,

(35:20):

And to open oneself as a vulnerable instinct. I've often thought gratefully that Jesus's body corpus on the cross is not in a fetal position. It's like, let's go. Let's, I'm going to embrace all of this. I'm going to hold all of this in my utter fragility and vulnerability. I remain available to embrace, and I trust that God is going to hold me. I don't understand it. I can't prove it. My only hope is that I will be held by God. And then the gift that I've received, I will give to you upon being held by God under these circumstances, which are the most almost unimaginable circumstances. God will hold me. Then I'll hold you, and then we're all good to go. Okay? And then it'll all come down to Kiwi dad. She cut the kiwi, right? And she did that with that 7-year-old edge in her voice, like, God, can't you do any? I just held her for an hour and a half, gave up my day after all I've done for you. And then she gives me the kiwi line. Yeah, cut the kiwi. Right? God, I just healed you. And now you're giving me shit about the kiwi and how I cut it at that angle thing, which obviously brings us to bless us, the Lord.

Joshua Minden (37:01):

And these thy many gifts

Terry Nelson-Johnson (37:04):

Which we continue to receive

Joshua Minden (37:06):

From your goodness

Terry Nelson-Johnson (37:08):

Through Christ our Lord.

Joshua Minden (37:09):

Amen.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (37:10):

Amen. Brother,

AI Voice (37:19):

Thank you for joining us for another episode of Stories & Other Things Holy. Visit our website, stories and other things holy (dot) com to access previous episodes and to sign up for our weekly email newsletter. We'll see you next week for another encounter with Stories & Other Things Holy.