Joshua Minden (00:13):

Happy New Year, and welcome to Stories and Other Things Holy - a podcast where we're encouraged to encounter stories and risk being made new by what is revealed. This week, our principal storyteller, Dr. Terry Nelson Johnson, provokes us to reflect on those whom we tolerate, ignore, stare at. He shares why we might risk being patient, even embracing those who may be changed by our openness or change us with theirs. So let's make a resolution together to encounter more Stories and Other Things Holy.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (01:07):

Stories and Other Things Holy. Happy New Year! I've always thought when I say it, just the word happy doesn't quite do it for me. Is that what we want A happy New Year? I think we want more, I guess. Yeah. So when I think about New Year, I think about that scriptural phrase. I should make all things new. And then I think about this declaration from St. Benedict. Always we begin again. And there's something about that always we begin again that just challenges and captures my imagination. And I was thinking about a story that I think embodies the willingness to consider beginning again, and it has to do with a gentleman named Mr. Riva. And he lived in Italy, not too far from Rome, two hours from Rome, and he had gone to a Jesuit high school and was remained, had some affinity for the church and some rhythm for the church. And he suffered from this disease, the technical name, I don't remember. But he had these growths all over his face and they were not subtle whatsoever. It's the kind of face that you would see and then avert your eyes and then you would look when that person wasn't looking and just often wondered what would it be like to traverse the earth looking like Mr. Riva. Was it like to go to school for the first day? Did you try out for debate at the turnabout dance? Were you invited?

(02:59):

Have you been kissed? What about the kiss of peace at church? Do people wave to you? People avoid contact with you? I actively imagine what it would be like when I have something physical happening and I just think to myself like, oh geez, I hope people don't notice this. It would be impossible to not notice Mr. Riva. So Pope Francis is welcomed into his role as Pope, and it's about a couple of weeks into his pontificate, and every Wednesday when he's sitting down, they do the AngelList and Noonday prayer special thing, and people come to St. Peter Square to receive that blessing. And Mr. Reva thought, Hey, I went to a Jesuit school. We have a Jesuit pope. I'm intrigued by this. So sure enough he goes, and then he goes to find a spot, and there's some people sort of waving him to the front only to discover that was like the handicap section.

(04:04):

Okay, so he's sitting closer than he would've imagined. The Pope offers the blessing and then gets on the little popemobile and begins to start the process of going around. And he'd already developed a little signal with the driver when he wanted him to stop. So he does the signal, the guy stops, and the Pope turns towards Mr. Riva. And then Mr. Riva thought, well, maybe he's going to give me a blessing. That'll be the greatest thing in the world. And he didn't do that. He just started walking towards Mr. Reba, Mr. Reba's like you talking to me. And then he just kept coming, and then the Pope opens his arms, and the next thing you know, Mr. Reba is in this embrace. And about two weeks later, some journalists caught up with them and pictures of this embrace between Mr. Riva and the Pope went viral and they found Mr. Riva and they're like, Mr. Riva, the picture with you. And the pope was all over the place. Like what was that like? And he said, I can't describe that energy.

(05:12):

The whole experience took 90 seconds, maybe two minutes, no words were exchanged. Sometimes you can say more when you say nothing. He held me in a long, strong embrace, and then he caressed my face and then he caressed my face. I'm not contagious, but he didn't know that I can't describe the energy. I felt only love. My life will never be the same. And so on this new year's day, on this day, that we are in relationship with a God who says, I should make all things new on this day. When St. Benedict challenges us with his phrase, always we begin again. I guess my question is really, is it a cooperative venture? Isn't New Year's a cooperative venture between ourselves and a God who welcomes us into newness? Do we believe in newness? Are we willing to risk newness? Those parts of us that are desperate need for caress? Will we make those parts available so that we might be made new so that the world might be made new? I just thank God for Mr. Reva's courage, and I thank God that we're blessed by a pope who is a caress of the first order and who holds people blessed New Year from Stories and Other Things Holy.

Joshua Minden (07:14):

Bless us so Lord,

Terry Nelson-Johnson (07:16):

For these thy gifts,

Joshua Minden (07:17):

Which we are about to receive,

Terry Nelson-Johnson (07:19):

From thy bounty,

Joshua Minden (07:20):

Through Christ our Lord.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (07:22):

Amen.

Joshua Minden (07:22):

Amen. Happy New Year's, brother.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (07:29):

Thank you. Right back at you.

Joshua Minden (07:33):

Amen. Of all the stories that I've heard you tell, I feel like this is probably the one I've heard most often, and I say that with delight, not with,

Terry Nelson-Johnson (07:45):

Here's number four

Joshua Minden (07:48):

D. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. No, no, no. But I say it actually with a delight because I feel like, and so I propose to what you do as a storyteller, this story conveys so much richness and can be used in a lot of different ways. So I know you use it in your confirmation retreats and have for many, well, probably since this event happened, I have also seen you use it in retreats and with teachers and for church staffs and in many other settings. And it really cuts to the quick of something that old saying, A picture's worth a thousand words. I feel like this, the picture of this embrace and they embrace itself even more so, or just like Mr. Riva said, there were no words. I can't describe the energy. There's something at the core of this that almost defies words, this experience, this encounter, this embrace. What is that? How do you think of that?

Terry Nelson-Johnson (09:21):

It lends itself to my propensity for physicality and for sexuality actually. And so encounter just the word gives the impression of something visceral. You don't refer to encounter when something just happened in your head. Encounter is usually has something physical about it. And so I often think like Mr. Riva thought that the pope may give him a traditional blessing, which is the Pope standing there and making sort of a large sign of the cross. And he said, that would've been great or whatever. But would it have been, what would've been the difference had Mr. Riva received a blessing from Pope Francis from 10 feet away as opposed to Pope Francis gets off as Popemobile walks towards the guy and then holds him. And I know you've been an embrace either on either side of the equation, whether you were the person being embraced or you were doing the embracing when one party didn't go for it. When one party tolerated it for all sorts of reasons, some of which may be great boundaries or whatever the case may be, something was not right about it,

(10:42):

But you know what? It looks like the person. It's the distinction between tolerating and embrace and surrendering yourself into it. And if you're the one doing the embracing, there's, you have about a four second window in there when someone can either lean into it or let you know this is not happening. And if it is, the only respectful thing is to cooperate with that to respect it. But when that happens, I always feel a certain element of sadness like, oh, we had an opportunity there. And for all people, Mr. Riva has to make this quick decision, consciously or unconsciously to allow himself to be held, and that's where the encounter comes in. If the Pope just comes by says something pious or gives the blessing, none of this happens. It's that kind of close proximity and the invitation to trust it, and we're talking about New Year's Day make all things new, always would begin again. Mr. Riva was a very poor candidate for

Joshua Minden (11:59):

This.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (12:00):

He's going to look nothing different after the embrace than he did before. He has to walk around the world with these welts all over his face to the point that the only times he gets them removed because the medical community can't do anything about them, is when they grow around his eyes so much that he can't see.

(12:20):

That's it. Other than that, he's a man walking in the world looking like a cheap B science fiction movie, and he's going to look like that after the embrace. So what's new? And when we think I should make all things new, we think, oh, my debt's going to be forgiven. I'm going to get the new house. My car will be fixed, my marriage will be healed. I will have a marriage. The kids will communicate with me. The church will be smart, whatever. It should look totally different. Mr. Riva looks exactly the same after the embrace as he walked into it. Like what's new about that? It's like Mr. Riva is new.

(13:05):

We are made new, our interiors are made new. Our relationship with everything is made new. And if everybody says, Hey, you're all invited here to Pope, is Pope Francis' first Angeles prayers at noon on Wednesdays, could all those people who think they're good candidates to be made new, take three steps forward. Mr. Reve is now moving. He's going to have to get on the bus and people look at him in the exact same way that they looked at him with pity or sadness or being frightened or grotesque, and that's how he's going to go home on the bus, but he's new and just his response is so mysterious to me. He used the word encounter and he didn't use it to impress, to suck up to Pope Francis. He says, the whole encounter took 90 seconds, maybe two minutes, he held me. And sometimes you can say more when you say nothing, which is fascinating. He held me in a long, strong embrace. He caressed my face definition of caress to touch with exaggerated tenderness. And it begs the question, when's the last time Mr. Riva was caressed? I suggest it's been a very, very, when his last time, his face was caressed, and to imagine the Pope doing it, it just fires my imagination, but to let himself be. That's the other thing. It's this like, oh, don't touch my face. You don't want to touch my face and I don't want you to touch my face.

(14:47):

So there's a tremendous risk on both parties involved. And then he says, I'm not contagious, but he didn't know that no one wants to go home with whatever Mr. Riva has. And one of my images about this is I love imagining Mr. Pope Francis' handlers watching him walk towards Mr. Riva. And they're like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Then they send out the junior varsity handler to catch up with the Pope to give him the blue prophylactic gloves. Excuse me, Pope, you probably wouldn't want these because this will be, you don't want to catch that. Then Pope Francis is like, come home smelling your people. Get so close to them that you come home with them on you. And then he just caresses this man's face and the man lets him. He caressed my face and then he kissed my face, the kiss of peace, and then he says, I can't describe the energy.

(15:50):

We talk a lot here about God and energy. I can't describe the energy. I felt only love. My life will never be the same. I shall make all things new. Always. We begin again. Pope Francis leaves as a sort of the ambassador of that, but he's healed and not cured if we think if he's made new. Oh, look at the Pope touched his face and all the welts fell off like, no, they stayed right where they were, but they now bore love. The fingerprints of the soul of the Pope are on. I think Mr. Reef is like, nobody take those off. Leave those babies on because they are now emblematic of a love that is bigger than ugly things in my face, man. Wow.

Joshua Minden (16:53):

I love this idea that of the junior varsity guy bringing the gloves out. It's like, oh, no, no, no. And I don't want to overburden because I know, especially right after Pope Francis was elected, especially those of us that were, I was a postulant at the time. I remember exactly where I was the day he came out on the Loja and they said, Francesco, and I was like, oh, I love this man already. But Francis of Assisi famously had his conversion through the embracing of a leper, and for anyone who's ever seen the picture of Mr. Riva, and none of these descriptions are intended to be insulting to the man

Terry Nelson-Johnson (17:50):

Whatsoever.

Joshua Minden (17:50):

He is a gift to us in so many ways, but it wouldn't be the most irrational comparison to compare his

Terry Nelson-Johnson (18:03):

Absolutely.

Joshua Minden (18:03):

His condition to almost like it looks a little bit like a leprosy of sorts.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (18:07):

Yes,

Joshua Minden (18:08):

It does. And so just that, and again, I don't want to sacrifice something so visceral, which is really the point, the visceralness of it. But yeah, St. Francis had a conversion through the embrace of a leper, the ones that he had run from. He was compelled by God to embrace. And so there was such a overwhelming, and I didn't learn about this story through the news. I learned the story from you, you telling this story, and then I went and I researched it and I read about it, and I was like, oh my goodness. This is the most incredible thing. It's really interesting though. There are just as many people that don't have deforming skin conditions or that don't have overt visible realities that we are terrified to embrace. And there are people with, there's so many people in our world that we're invited to be that, what is that word? You used it in reference to the embrace itself. You said sometimes we lean in, we accept the embrace, another surrender

Terry Nelson-Johnson (19:24):

Tolerate

Joshua Minden (19:25):

Versus tolerate. Right. And I feel like there are people in our world that we're called to embrace and we tolerate.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (19:31):

Oh, absolutely. The thing that strikes me about it is this gets so messy. You think about birth and death are really, they're both symbolic and actual moments where we become something different. In birth, we moved from utero to like, now I am a person in the world who's hungry and need of all sorts of care

Joshua Minden (19:58):

And vocal about it

Terry Nelson-Johnson (19:59):

And vocal about it. And in death, assuming there's an eschaton, we leave this body and are welcomed into the ambiguous certain arms of love. Both are new

(20:15):

Symbolically, the new moments in our lives, birth and death. And one common denominator about them is they are both messy in the wake of the birth or the death. How was your experience of the birth? How was your experience of the death like? Oh, is they nice, was tidy? No, I've been at a couple of births, a couple deaths. Tidy is the last word, especially if you were the birthing mother. Tidy is the last word you would use to describe that. You know what I'm saying? And so in this instance, I think we miss the opportunities to heal because we are so awkward with mess

(21:02):

And we want to factor it out, and it's just not the nature of love. The nature of love is messy. And so if we are going to heal, if we're going to make all things new, you can assume it's not going to be tidy. And so this two minute encounter is so elegantly embraces the like, huh, I could stand 10 feet away. I give the guy the old Pope blessing, no harm, no foul, precisely, or I can go hold him. And we have a pope who was at 75 at the time, whatever, 78, made this decision to approach this man and hold him and caress him, and both parties had to take that risk. If Mr. Riva doesn't cooperate, Pope respects that, but then just think what's missed. Wow. Yeah. That if we are going to actually believe in cooperate with a God who says, I should make all things new and take seriously, pop Benedict's manifesto always will begin again. We can assume it's going to be messy and potentially really, really good. Really, really liberating. My life will never be the same. My life will never be the same. Pray that we might allow Mr. Riva to inspire us. I bless us, the Lord

Joshua Minden (22:43):

And these thy gifts,

Terry Nelson-Johnson (22:44):

Which we have just received

Joshua Minden (22:46):

From your goodness

Terry Nelson-Johnson (22:48):

And your bounty

Joshua Minden (22:50):

Through Christ our Lord.

Terry Nelson-Johnson (22:51):

Amen.

Joshua Minden (22:52):

Amen.

(22:57):

Thank you for joining us for this New Year's episode of Stories and Other Things Holy. We are so thankful that you chose to start the new year with us. We invite you to visit our website: StoriesAndOtherThingsHoly.com

(23:09):

There you can sign up for our email newsletter, access links to previous episodes, links to our social media channels, and learn about different ways that you can help promote and support the podcast. We welcome your feedback as well. You can email us at connect@otherthingsholy.com to share any feedback, advice, encouragement that you might have about the podcast that can help us to make it better. Thank you again for joining us, and don't forget that shared resolution to experience more Stories and Other Things Holy.